TAZ: Mr. Bode, you took care of assistance projects in development in Tunisia 30 years ago. You recently visited the country again. What balance do you draw?
Thilo Bode: At that time, I was responsible for the water project and tourism on the island of Jerb. Today, private households on Jerb have compounds of drinking water, this was not so. At that time there were only about ten large hotels – today it is more than a hundred. Tourism created jobs there, and Germany finances the salary of sea water. But the island became a landfill, and the water was wasted. Jerba is a destroyed paradise today. I was part of this destructive process. It makes me incredibly sad.
TAZ: German cooperation in the field of development is aimed at helping other countries overcome poverty. Did it work in Tunisia?
Bode: When I determine cooperation in the field of development with the help of projects, it does not look bad. But if you take a common photo, you come to different results.
TAZ: What do you mean?
Bode: You cannot evaluate the advantages of development help if you ignore other aspects: the EU or its foreign policy interests. Organizations of development policy, such as the Society for International Cooperation (Giz) or Kreditanstalt Reconstruction Für (KFW), evaluate themselves, and this assessment only evaluates the success of individual projects. A country such as Tunisia, in which most projects are positively evaluated, can still go to dogs.
TAZ: In the 1980s, the standard of living in Tunisia was higher than in China or South Korea. Today in North Africa, it seems, economically left behind, but Asia has experienced a quick rise. Why is it?
Bode: The basis for the economic color, from which not only small elite benefits are a form of agriculture, with which farmers in their country through growing products that they produce and sell, make good money instead of making only for export on large farms. This puts general economic impulses, which, in turn, create jobs. Now it is a consensus in science. This agriculture does not exist in countries that are economically bad. This is applicable, in particular, to Africa Ozahara. China and South Korea, on the other hand, deliberately promoted the agricultural sector for small farmers.
TAZ: There is no tunis?
Bode: People in China no longer need to starve, children receive good training, and families are socially provided, for example, thanks to a functioning healthcare system. There is social inequality and oppression, yes. But the impoverished farmers in the country in Tunisia can only dream of such conditions. In Southern Tunisia, more than half of people work in an informal sector without any social security. You can no longer afford local olive oil with high quality, but you can retreat cheap and cut the oil. Tunisia mainly imposes an export industrial mini -sector. He creates too few jobs to effectively fight poverty.
TAZ: The fall of the Tunisian dictator Ben Ali in January 2011 marked the beginning of the Arab Spring. What did he fail in Tunisia?
Bode: Two years after the fall of Ben Ali, I traveled around the country. From a taxi driver to students, everyone told me how they are free without the constant fear of the police. But you could not buy something to eat, many said. They hoped for a better life. But this remained a dream.
TAZ: Why?
Bode: The revolution must change the social balance. But after Ben Ali’s fall, unfair relations with land ownership remained as untouched as the influence of fewer wealthy families on which Ben Ali’s rule was based. On my last trip, people said that democracy did not bring anything to them. They prefer to want a dictator in the hope that he will create a reorganization.
In an interview: Thilo Bode
Born in 1947, was the managing director of Greenpeace Germany, and then Greenpeace International. In 2002, he founded the organization of consumer protection. His book “Resist. Call to resistance. Memories of a political activist “appear in the fall.
TAZ: Is this hope justified? President Kais Side is again authoritarian.
Bode: They say that he personally is not corrupt. But he cannot dare to deal with the corrupt elites that control the state and the inflated administration. For this, Tunisia became a police state at Kais Said. It very disappointed me.
TAZ: After the fall of Ben Ali, German assistance in the development of Tunisia was significantly expanded. Was it a mistake?
Bode: Big help in development is not necessarily the best help in development. In Tunisia, it would require land reform to combat poverty in rural areas.
TAZ: Why didn’t Germany advance more?
Bode: German foreign policy is aimed at maintaining good bilateral relations with Tunisia. The fight against poverty through another agricultural policy contradicted this goal, because it would threaten the advantages of elites, real rulers in the country. And if these elites feel threatening, even more boats can quickly come to Europe with refugees.
TAZ: Europe hopes to stop migration from North Africa to Europe due to its development help. Is it realistic?
Bode: No. The EU pays a lot of money to the Tunisian government so that these refugees from Africa prevent the intersection of Mediterranean to Europe to Europe. The Tunisian authorities are extremely cruel, subject people without food and water in the desert and punish human rights activists who want to help them. The EU migration policy takes place with human dignity, but, unfortunately, this is hardly a problem for us. The EU also makes this strategy even more blackmail. Since the appropriate countries -reputers say: if you provide us with too many conditions, we can also take money from the Russians or Chinese.
TAZ: The EU accepts these violations of human rights in order to keep people from running to Europe.
Bode: Coast guard in Tunisia and Libya is modernized, but the main problem remains. Because this form of migration will stop only if poverty is effectively fighting in countries of origin. For economic refugees – people who want a better life – there is no legal way for us. But for many people, the house is so desperate that they risk their death in order to avoid it. This is poverty that makes these people take a chance. The only cooperation in the field of development cannot eliminate this poverty.
TAZ: They say that the EU trading policy contributes to impoverishment. Do you have an example of this?
Bode: Olive growing is the most important industry in the central fun. But investors are currently growing a new Spanish variety that grows on bus trees that can be assembled a car. They are artificially irrigated, mainly from illegally controlled wells. They replace old olive varieties that do not need artificial irrigation. The EU trading policy also contributes to this. Since in addition to the contingent without duty, oil from Tunisia can be exported to a European duty if it is mixed in the EU with Spanish or Italian olive oil, and then sold as oil from Spain or Italy, this designation of origin provides a price advantage. Thus, the protection of the EU creates an incentive for the production of low and environmentally harmful olive oil and sell them to Europe as cheap goods. The EU provides assistance in development with one hand. On the other hand, by trading policy, she contributes to the impoverishment. What is useful?
TAZ: Can Tunisia bring more prosperity more free trade? The corresponding agreement with the EU, called Aleca, is currently on ice.
Bode: No. This agreement shows how serious the EU is to combat poverty. Alec to a large extent provided dairy farming in Tunisia. But the mechanized dairy industry will not remove rural poverty, but will increase. Local farmers have no chance against European manufacturers such as Danone and Co. Hundreds of thousands in the country will lose their work, which is already very well paid. Thus, the Civil Society of Tunisia resisted this Agreement.
TAZ: Do you still have the hope that problems can be resolved?
Bode: On this planet there is enough space and livelihoods. The population of the world stabilizes about ten billion in 2050, which can be predicted quite well. We know solutions for many problems – for example, with the Sun sufficient in Tunisia, which can solve energy problems. I hope that poor countries will reflect on their own capabilities and potential. This is a good sign that the former French colonies are currently throwing their former colonial masters from the country. And I want to help weaken excessive expectations for development help and recognize their ugly side effects.
