On the one hand, an intellectual figure who has long embodied contemporary French educational thought: Philippe Meirieu, academic, specialist in educational sciences and politician – he was, under the colours of Europe Ecologie-Les Verts, vice-president of the Rhône-Alpes region from 2010 to 2015. On the other, one of the great thinkers of liberalism, the philosopher Philippe Nemo, whose books on education advocate a radical break. The first publishes Education: Let’s turn the lights back on! (Dawn), cry of alarm against “The Great Renunciation” what current school policies represent for him. The second, Rethinking teaching (PUF), in defence of a reform of the education system. Two important positions, opposed to each other. They agreed to debate it for “Le Monde des livres”.
Your books all have one thing in common: the feeling that the school needs to be repaired. What kind of damage did they do?
Felipe Nemo: I see two main problems. On the one hand, a general decline in the level, which is measured every year by international tests such as PISA. On the other hand, a virtual collapse of secondary education, which I have been able to observe year after year as a teacher and member of competitive juries for the main schools. If some establishments survive, it is because they barely respect the educational principles defended by national education. This is the case of the large public institutes with exemptions, such as Henri-IV or Louis-le-Grand, or of the private establishments that we do not dare to pursue too much. These are essential valves. But hundreds of secondary schools of this quality are needed in all the cities of France.
Philippe Meirieu: For my part, I see a school system exhausted by a multitude of successive reforms arbitrarily imposed by politicians on teachers who are terribly lacking in recognition, both financial and symbolic. I also see a widening of inequalities. Indeed, international tests show that at the age of 15 there is a general decline in performance. But I also see that the gap between students from the poorest families and those from the most advantaged families is also constantly increasing.
Furthermore, PISA-type assessments need to be put into perspective. We know that some countries prepare their students from a very early age to succeed in PISA assessments. That said, I will not hide my face. I too, as a teacher, have observed a drop in standards, particularly in the mastery of the written language. I simply do not believe that this is the sole responsibility of the school. There is a whole social, media and linguistic environment, a relationship with standards that is evolving, and this questions society as a whole, as well as its school.
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